Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Go down

Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Post by Lionel A on Thu May 23, 2013 3:32 am

May 23, 2013
Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Fr.Brian Harrison is reviewing an article he wrote on the Internet and possibly Bro. Andre Marie,MICM, Prior of the St.Benedict Center Richmond,N.H will cite this theological paper on the SBC or post is as he has done before.It will contain the familiar error of assuming the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are visible to us exceptions of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.We can see the dead saved!!!

In the past too he has made this error and it was not corrected by Bro.Andre Marie.

Similarly Jeff Mirus of Catholic Culture had written a few articles to which Bro. Andre Marie responded. Again he did not correct Jeff Mirus. We do not know of any case in the present times saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16).

People in general , assume there are known exceptions to the dogma. So when they see the dogma-text on the SBC website it is assumed at first that this community of Fr.Leonard Feeney is a sedevacantist one or traditionalists who reject Vatican Council II.

There is no clarification or disclaimer on the SBC website saying ,'Being saved with implicit desire (with or without ) the baptism of water is always invisible for us human beings.

So being saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16, Vatican Council II), elements of sanctification (LG Cool and being 'good and holy' non Catholics (NA) are not in themself known or unknown exceptions to the dogma defined three times.'

When Fr.Brian Harrison says that invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are included in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, then whatever this means for him, he would have to clarify that these cases are not exceptions to the dogma on salvation.

When Robert Sungenis says every one needs to enter the Church in the present times with no exceptions and also says except for those with the baptism of desire etc, whatever this means for him, he would have to clarify that these cases are not known exceptions to the dogma.

When Bro.Andre Marie says that a person can be saved with implicit desire but only followed by the baptism of water, he would have to clarify, that these cases are known only to God and so are not exceptions to the dogma or the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.

When just about all of them say that the Letter of the Holy office 1949 states there are exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney on the dogma it would have to be clarified that there is no text inn the Letter which says these cases are explicit for us and so are exceptions to the dogma.The Letter only mentions implicit desire and being saved in inculpable ignorance.It does not state that they are exceptions. You can assume that they are exceptions or assume they are not.There are two options. One rational and the other irrational.

If Bro. Andre Marie would say clearly that being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are invisible for us, this would be stating a fact of life. We cannot see the dead, So even if Fr.Leonard Feeney has not clearly mentioned this truth, we accept it as a universal fact : the dead cannot be seen with the naked eye.

What does not exist cannot be an exception.What we cannot see or know cannot be an exception. If someone is dead he cannot be an 3exception to all needing to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation(Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441) or all needing faith and baptism for salvation( Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II).-Lionel Andrades

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Post by Admin on Thu May 23, 2013 8:40 pm

Lionel,

Post the relevant paragraphs here; keep it organized, and do not contact any of these people!! No more hearsay; if it's not an original, primary source, do not post it!

Admin
Admin

Posts : 220
Join date : 2013-02-12

View user profile http://eens.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Fr.Harrison is revising his original article which assumes there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Post by Lionel A on Fri May 24, 2013 10:50 am

http://catholicism.org/downloads/FrHarrison_Implicit-Faith.pdf

Dear Reader,
This file has been removed at the request of Father Brian Harrison, who is planning revisions to the
article.
To go to our main page...

catholicism.org

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

He just takes it for granted in this article that the baptism of desire and the baptism of blood are relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Post by Lionel A on Fri May 24, 2013 11:40 am

http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt149.html

He just takes it for granted in this article that the baptism of desire and the baptism of blood are relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. According to his reasoning, known or unknown, these cases are exceptions and they are exceptions because we know these exceptions, we can see these cases, we can personally name them in 2013.This is what he implies.

On the other hand if I say that the baptism of desire and other such cases saved are not known to me, we do not personally know any such case in 2013, we do not even know if there has ever been one such case this year, then these cases are irrelevant to the dogma.Why mention them as exceptions ?.

And if there are no exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus then it is understandable, the Church did not consider them exceptions or visible cases, to even mention then over the centuries, as being relevant to the dogma.


Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Post by Admin on Fri May 24, 2013 10:27 pm

Salvation is unknown period. Are you familiar with this canon from the Council of Trent:

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

Except for baptized children who die before the Age of Reason and those whom the Church has canonized, who's salvation is visible to us?

Admin
Admin

Posts : 220
Join date : 2013-02-12

View user profile http://eens.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

They are not physically visible to us.Neither is anyone else in Heaven.

Post by Lionel A on Sat May 25, 2013 5:46 am

Except for baptized children who die before the Age of Reason and those whom the Church has canonized, who's salvation is visible to us?
.

Those whom the Church has canonized we accept as being in Heaven and we also pray to them. They are not physically visible to us.Neither is anyone else in Heaven.

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Post by Admin on Sat May 25, 2013 8:12 pm

Then all salvation is invisible.

Admin
Admin

Posts : 220
Join date : 2013-02-12

View user profile http://eens.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

All salvation in Heaven is physically invisible for us.

Post by Lionel A on Sun May 26, 2013 11:20 am

All salvation in Heaven is physically invisible for us.
This includes those saved in invincible ignorance and with implicit desire.
So if it is invisible for us how could these cases be exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney ?
How can there be anything in Vatican Council II which contradicts extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
How can there be ambiguity in Vatican Council II with reference to other religions, Christian communties and Churches?

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Post by Admin on Sun May 26, 2013 12:25 pm

I agree with all of the above, with the proviso that everyone must end his/her life in "the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church". No exceptions.

Admin
Admin

Posts : 220
Join date : 2013-02-12

View user profile http://eens.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Post by Lionel A on Sun May 26, 2013 12:28 pm

Agreed. Thats the message of the dogma.

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Clarification/disclaimer would be helpful on the SBC website

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum