Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

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Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Wed May 22, 2013 8:22 am

The first three come from here:

http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

The fourth (and fifth) can be found online.

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore, with the approval of the present sacred council, for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church, his spouse, renew and give our approval to that constitution, but without prejudice to the declaration of pope Clement V of holy memory, which begins Meruit. (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, 1516)

"For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith." (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, 1516)

Of course, there are many, many more Magisterial quotes, but the above should be sufficient. Any human being who wishes to go to Heaven must end his/her life in "the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." If there is a "through no fault of their own" category of individuals, however few or many they may be, let the Righteous Judge decide their fate on the Last Day. Until then, we need to proclaim from the housetops:

"Outside the Catholic Church, no salvation."

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The issue is are these cases visible or invisible to us.Then what you have quoted above will become clear.

Post by Lionel A on Wed May 22, 2013 9:13 am

These messages are clear for you and me.
But for Fr. Brian Morrison and Robert Sungenis it will not be clear. Since they assume that there are exceptions.
In fact many good people on reading these messages may mistake you for a sede or a traditionalist who rejects Vatican Council II.
We have to show them that there cannot be exceptions, and we have to do this,not with theology, as does the St.Benedict Center,NH.They would just write off the theology and consider you a 'Feeneyite'.This would be the end of any discussion.

We have to bring it to their attention that whenever someone says there is an exception to the dogma(which you have cited here) it is because they assume that these 'exceptions' are visible to us.

The issue is are these cases visible or invisible to us. Then what you have quoted abov will become clear.

This is an issue which the SBC is not working on or issuing a statement.Since it has not been part of their apologetics.
It's true they affirm the dogma and so there are no exceptions for them, but when considering the exceptions in themself, they picture them as visible.This is most clearly seen in their understanding of Vatican Coucil II. AG 7 would contradict itself and AG 7 would contradict LG 16,LG 8 etc.
If they could affirm that exceptions are hypothetical, then the Council would not be a break with the quotations you have cited above.
This is why many times I have asked you to get a statement from them on this issue.[img][/img]






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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Wed May 22, 2013 10:00 am

I don't care what they think. It should be enough for you to know that they spend pages trying to "explain" what simple paragraphs so clearly say. I have better things to do with my time and so do you!!

As for Vatican II, it can be reconciled with Tradition with minimal difficulty. For the so-called "progressives" who say that Vatican II "developed" the Catholic dogma of EENS, such a view was condemned at the First Vatican Council. We understand dogma with the "same sense and understanding" which the Catholic Church understood when the ink was drying.

The Church's words can "speak for themselves."

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Please ask Bro.Andre Marie if Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and you will get your answer.

Post by Lionel A on Thu May 23, 2013 3:40 am

Please ask Bro.Andre Marie if Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and you will get your answer.
You will know if he considers Lumen Gentium 16(invincible ignorance) as being invisible or invisible to us.

Similarly ask him if Vatican Council II is in agreement with the literal interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney.
Again you wil be able to discover if being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicit or implicit for us.

Ask him if he recognizes the defacto.dejure(in principle) concept mentioned in the Introduction of Dominus Iesus .
If he does can it be applied to being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire?
These cases are defacto not know to us personally but accepted only in principle ( in faith). They are not known realities but are accepted only as possibilities.

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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Thu May 23, 2013 8:13 am

Lionel,

I have already pointed this out to you a number of times, including, on Rasha's forum:

http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/the_center_review_toc.html
http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/laisneyism.html

The late Brother Thomas Mary Sennott knew Father Feeney personally for a really long time.

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The answers are not there and I think I have mentioned this to you before too.

Post by Lionel A on Thu May 23, 2013 8:19 am

Don,
The answers are not there and I think I have mentioned this to you before too.

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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Thu May 23, 2013 8:28 am

Lionel,

Look here:

http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/CenterReview/3_2005_Vatican2.pdf

Note this paragraph:

So “those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – these too may attain eternal salvation,” – but not where they are. “Whatever good or truth is found among them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel, and it is to such as these that the Church reaches out in its missionary activity.

“…Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of these, the Church…takes zealous care to foster the missions.”

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On the Catholicism.org website where this is mentioned they could place an asterisk

Post by Lionel A on Fri May 24, 2013 11:44 am

On the Catholicism.org website where this is mentioned they could place an asterisk.

http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
*
'Being saved with implicit desire (with or without ) the baptism of water is always invisible for us human beings.
So being saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16, Vatican Council II), elements of sanctification (LG Cool and being 'good and holy' non Catholics (NA) are not in themself, known or unknown, exceptions to the dogma defined three times.'


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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Fri May 24, 2013 10:20 pm

Lionel A wrote:On the Catholicism.org website where this is mentioned they could place an asterisk.

http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
*
'Being saved with implicit desire (with or without ) the baptism of water is always invisible for us human beings.
So being saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16, Vatican Council II), elements of sanctification (LG Cool and being 'good and holy' non Catholics (NA) are not in themself, known or unknown, exceptions to the dogma defined three times.'


Lionel,

Except for infants who have been Baptized and die before the Age of Reason, salvation for any adult is invisible to us, save for those individuals whom the Catholic Church has canonized. So, unless your a kiddo, being saved with baptism of water is invisible to us.

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Yes we cannot see anyone in Heaven with the physical eye

Post by Lionel A on Sat May 25, 2013 5:48 am

Except for infants who have been Baptized and die before the Age of Reason, salvation for any adult is invisible to us, save for those individuals whom the Catholic Church has canonized. So, unless your a kiddo, being saved with baptism of water is invisible to us..
Yes we cannot see anyone in Heaven with the physical eye.

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Does this line refer to invisible to us or visible to us salvation for the SBC?

Post by Lionel A on Sat May 25, 2013 5:55 am

http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/CenterReview/3_2005_Vatican2.pdf

Note this paragraph:


So “those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – these too may attain eternal salvation,” – but not where they are. “Whatever good or truth is found among them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel, and it is to such as these that the Church reaches out in its missionary activity.

“…Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of these, the Church…takes zealous care to foster the missions.”.

those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church...these too may attain eternal salvation

Does this line refer to invisible to us or visible to us salvation for the SBC?

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How would you respond to these questions?

Post by Lionel A on Sat May 25, 2013 6:03 am

How would you respond to these questions?

Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
Since Lumen Gentium 16(invincible ignorance) is invisible or visible to us ?.


____________________________________________________________________

Vatican Council II is in agreement with the literal interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney?.
Since being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicit or implicit for us ?

____________________________________________________________________

The defacto-dejure(in principle) concept is mentioned in the Introduction of Dominus Iesus .
Can it be applied to being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire?
These cases are defacto not known to us personally but accepted only in principle ( in faith).
They are not known realities but are accepted only as possibilities?

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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Sat May 25, 2013 8:11 pm

Lionel A wrote:
http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/CenterReview/3_2005_Vatican2.pdf

Note this paragraph:


So “those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – these too may attain eternal salvation,” – but not where they are. “Whatever good or truth is found among them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel, and it is to such as these that the Church reaches out in its missionary activity.

“…Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of these, the Church…takes zealous care to foster the missions.”.

those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church...these too may attain eternal salvation

Does this line refer to invisible to us or visible to us salvation for the SBC?

"Invisible," as no one's salvation is visible, for those beyond the Age of Reason.

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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Sat May 25, 2013 8:11 pm

Lionel A wrote:How would you respond to these questions?

Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
Since Lumen Gentium 16(invincible ignorance) is invisible or visible to us ?.


____________________________________________________________________

Vatican Council II is in agreement with the literal interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney?.
Since being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicit or implicit for us ?

____________________________________________________________________

The defacto-dejure(in principle) concept is mentioned in the Introduction of Dominus Iesus .
Can it be applied to being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire?
These cases are defacto not known to us personally but accepted only in principle ( in faith).
They are not known realities but are accepted only as possibilities?

As all salvation, beyond infancy, is invisible, there is no conflict.

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So one can accept the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus cited above without having to be a sedevacantists or traditionalist who rejects Vatican Council II

Post by Lionel A on Sun May 26, 2013 11:31 am

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) *


So when the above quotations are posted on the SBC website there should also be a clarification:

*
All salvation in Heaven is physically invisible for us.So we cannot see or know any one ,now in Heaven, who is saved without the baptism of water and Catholic Faith. So there are no known exceptions to the above three defined statements.

All salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is invisible for us so the Council does not contradict the dogma above.
All cases in Heaven saved in invincible ignorance and implicit desire are invisible for us. So these cases are irrelevant to the dogma mentioned above.
Invincible ignorance and implicit desire being physically invisible for us are not exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney on the dogma mentioned above.
So accepting the above three statements on extra ecclesiam nulla salus does not mean it is a denial of Vatican Council II or other Magisterial documents.
So one can accept the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus cited above without having to be a sedevacantists or traditionalist who rejects Vatican Council II.

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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Sun May 26, 2013 12:07 pm

I think that the SBC would say the following:

1) There are no exceptions to the defined dogma of EENS. Period. Visible or invisible, there are no exceptions.

2) With the exception of sacramentally baptized infants who die in infancy, all salvation, for adults at least, is invisible. No exceptions, save for those whom the Catholic Church has, at a later date, canonized.

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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Lionel A on Sun May 26, 2013 12:30 pm

1) There are no exceptions to the defined dogma of EENS. Period. Visible or invisible, there are no exceptions.

The SBC says there are no exceptions to the defined dogma since the dogma does not mention any.

The SBC does not say that what others call an exception are not physically visible to us and so cannot be an exception.


2) With the exception of sacramentally baptized infants who die in infancy, all salvation, for adults at least, is invisible.

Even a sacramentally baptized infant in Heaven would be invisible for us ?.



No exceptions, save for those whom the Catholic Church has, at a later date, canonized.

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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

Post by Admin on Sun May 26, 2013 2:15 pm

It is a great question about infants, because what is the intent of the minister? If a priest deliberately and willfully, although privately, withheld all intent of administering sacramental Baptism, but publicly, he used correct matter and form, is that Baptism valid?

But, yes, tentatively, I would agree with you, that for sacramentally and publicly baptized infants, their salvation is invisible to us, even if they should perish before the Age of Reason.

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Re: Clear Magisterial statements on the need for one to be Catholic in order to go to Heaven.

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