Pope celebrates his saint's day with cardinals: 'absurd' to look for Jesus without the Church

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Pope celebrates his saint's day with cardinals: 'absurd' to look for Jesus without the Church

Post by Lionel A on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:50 am

Pope celebrates his saint's day with cardinals: 'absurd' to look for Jesus without the Church

https://youtu.be/Jed_7aRz0Gk

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf does not know how to handle a comment on Lumen Gentium 15

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf on his blog What Does the Prayer Really Say is unable to say that Vatican Council II says outside the Church there is no salvation.He is unable to respond to comments on Lumen Gentium being exceptions to the dogma.Lumen Gentium mentions no exceptions to the pope's statement.

Pope Francis has said that the Church is necessary (Dominus Iesus 20 etc) and this is also been the message of Fr.Zuhlsdorf.

But what about Lumen Gentium 15,16,8 etc ?

Is Pope Francis contradicting Vatican Council II ?

No!

Lumen Gentium 15

“For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate ["hierarchical"?!], celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.”


It's simple. Lumen Gentium 15 is referring to the possibility of a Christian being saved in his community or church but LG 15 is not saying that these cases are known to us and so are an exception.It is referring only to a possibility and not an exception. It cannot be an exception since these cases are invisible for us.If we knew any particular case then it would be an exception to the dogma on salvation or to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need 'faith and baptism' for salvation.Ad Gentes 7 is listed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the title Outside the Church No Salvation (CCC 846)

So Lumen Gentium 15 cannot be an exception to Pope Francis' statement.It would be irrational to claim that it is an exception.

For Fr.John Zuhlsdorf and so many traditionalists LG 15,16,8 etc are visible to us and so are exceptions to the traditional teaching on other Christians and non Catholics.So they are critical of Vatican Council II and assume there are ambiguities where there are none.-Lionel Andrades

Venerator Sti Lot says: 23 April 2013 at 12:41 pm
How does, or would, the Holy Father dilate upon this in the specific context of Lumen gentium 15 ? (I think especially of, “For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate ["hierarchical"?!], celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.”)

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/04/pope-francis-it-is-not-possible-to-find-jesus-outside-the-church/#comments


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Re: Pope celebrates his saint's day with cardinals: 'absurd' to look for Jesus without the Church

Post by Admin on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:39 am

Lionel,

Point out to Father Z. (who refuses to "friend" me on Facebook), LG, 51.

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