Is Lumen Gentium 14 and Lumen Gentium 16 really an exception to Pope Francis' statement ?

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Is Lumen Gentium 14 and Lumen Gentium 16 really an exception to Pope Francis' statement ?

Post by Lionel A on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:45 am

On Fr.John Zuhlsdorf's blog there have been comments on Pope Francis statement on the feast of St.George. He said “it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”.

The comments on his blog What Does the Prayer Really Say ? refer to Lumen Gentium 14 and 16.Comments consider LG 14 and LG 16 to be exceptions to the Holy Father's statement.

Fr.Z is not expected to answer them.Since he too assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire are physically visible to us and so they are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

LG 14 and 16 are not exceptions to the pope's statement“it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church” since they do not contradict Ad Gentes 7 which says all need 'faith and baptism' for salvation.

Vatican Council II (AG 7)is saying all need to know Jesus and know the Catholic Faith and receive the baptism of water to go to heaven and avoid Hell.Members of Christians communities and the Orthodox Churches do not have Catholic Faith. So Pope Francis' statement is in agreement with Vatican Council II.

LG 14 and LG 16 refer to invisible-for- us cases who are known only to God. If they were visible to us, seen in the flesh, then they would be exceptions to AG 7. So there are no exceptions in 2013 to AG 7 and Pope Francis' statement.Vatican Council II is traditional on the issue of other religions and ecumenism and there is no ambiguity.-Lionel Andrades


[quote]Jeannie_C says:
23 April 2013 at 4:09 pm
Venerator Sti Lot, read Lumen Gentium 14: “…..Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” Also – LG 16: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

I understand the above from Lumen Gentium, as well as the quotation you provide, which is the quotation that fits in between the two I cite to mean that those who are ignorant of Christ, or who are born into other Christian faith communities may also be saved, but – here’s the kicker – once they become aware that the R.C. Church is the original Church founded by Christ upon Peter, they are bound to come into the fold, otherwise there is no salvation for them. These explanations are found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 820 and onward discussing ecumenism and unity.

Here’s the problem I have with ecumenism and keep bumping up against it – most who belong to faith communities separated from the R.C. Church believe that ecumenism means finding a middle ground where we can meet, means our giving up some of our beliefs and core traditions, in short our (R.C.) becoming less and becoming more like them. I don’t believe ecumenism translates into relativism, rather it means finding a middle ground in which to engage discussion, but the end goal is to bring the schismatics and heretics back to Christ’s church. Nothing less, and it is our mandate as Roman Catholics to evangelize protestants as well as those who don’t know Christ.

Of course, I’m not Pope Francis and can’t speak for him, but I don’t believe he would see our faith watered down in order to accommodate those outside the church, but does see those outside the church who have at least some faith and understanding as being on the right track. Again, it is our responsibility to pull them in.quote]
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/04/pope-francis-it-is-not-possible-to-find-jesus-outside-the-church/#comments

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Re: Is Lumen Gentium 14 and Lumen Gentium 16 really an exception to Pope Francis' statement ?

Post by Admin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:30 pm

If LG, 16 was expressing a "null set" or at least a very, very small one, what is there to argue over? Compare and contrast LG, 16 with LG, 51. Is there a contradiction here? If LG, 16 was expressing a "null set," then, clearly, the answer is "No." Agreed?

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Re: Is Lumen Gentium 14 and Lumen Gentium 16 really an exception to Pope Francis' statement ?

Post by Lionel A on Thu May 02, 2013 5:13 am

Agreed.

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Re: Is Lumen Gentium 14 and Lumen Gentium 16 really an exception to Pope Francis' statement ?

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