Bro.Thomas Augustine will still not answer if the baptism of desire cases are physically visible to us

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I don't see the connection in your reply between the passage above and the one below.

Post by Lionel A on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:38 am

The status of the Sisters is not at issue here.

I very much disagree with this statement. If "Feeneyites" are in full communion with Rome, then the opinions expressed in the Bread of Life are valid (albeit, minor) theological opinions:

http://catholicism.org/our-status-in-the-church.html

I don't see the connection in your reply between the passage above and the one below.


This is a very serious issue since the SSPX could be penalized by the new pope for rejecting Vatican Council II since for the SSPX the Council is a break with the dogma etc and the SBC is silent and not explaining things to them.

Also Popè Francis has said that inter religious dialogue must be based on Vatican Council II and the SBC does not state that the Council says outside the Church there is no salvation.

All this time in reports from SSPX priests and others it was never told to them that if anyone considers the baptism of desire etc as an exception to the dogma, it indicates that these cases are visible to him or her.

Even the Canon lawyer who wrote that report which you quote often did not know that the baptism of desire was never ever an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus and it was irrelevant to Fr.Leonard Feeney

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Re: Bro.Thomas Augustine will still not answer if the baptism of desire cases are physically visible to us

Post by Admin on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:42 am

Vatican II never said that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism. One could read the text as indicating such as a possibility, but one could also read the text as saying that everyone in Paradise will have had sacramental Baptism in Water without any exceptions whatsoever. If the latter reading is, in fact, the truth, then "baptism of desire" is nothing more than "desire of baptism," in which case, what is their left "to explain"?

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If they cannot be visible to us then cannot the SBC say this aloud

Post by Lionel A on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:54 am

Vatican II never said that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism. One could read the text as indicating such as a possibility, but one could also read the text as saying that everyone in Paradise will have had sacramental Baptism in Water without any exceptions whatsoever. If the latter reading is, in fact, the truth, then "baptism of desire" is nothing more than "desire of baptism," in which case, what is their left "to explain"?.

Even if there are no individuals in Heaven who lack the charachter of baptism how can the baptism of desire, being saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience etc be an exception to the dogma. How can these cases be visible to us ?

If they cannot be visible to us then cannot the SBC say this aloud.This is a very serious issue since the SSPX could be penalized by the new pope for rejecting Vatican Council II since for the SSPX the Council is a break with the dogma etc and the SBC is silent and not explaining things to them.

Tell it to Pope Francis.

Also Popè Francis has said that inter religious dialogue must be based on Vatican Council II and the SBC does not state that the Council says outside the Church there is no salvation.
Tell it to the SSPX.All this time in reports from SSPX priests and others it was never told to them that if anyone considers the baptism of desire etc as an exception to the dogma, it indicates that these cases are visible to him or her.

Tell it to him.

Even the Canon lawyer who wrote that report which you quote often did not know that the baptism of desire was never ever an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus and it was irrelevant to Fr.Leonard Feeney.

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Re: Bro.Thomas Augustine will still not answer if the baptism of desire cases are physically visible to us

Post by Admin on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:02 am

Lionel,

Either you have the character of sacramental Baptism or you don't. If you do, then you have the capability to end your life in the "bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." Does not matter if such cases are "visible" or not. Either you go to Heaven or you go to Hell, but not both. Ditto for sacramental Baptism.

So, yes, you are right, "baptism of desire" (aka, "desire of baptism") cannot be visible to us. All that we can see is a visible sacramental Baptism in Water and that is what constitutes the visible Church for those who, by their very own lips, profess submission to the Roman Pontiff and his governance of the One True Church. If there is an "in voto" camp of folks out there (certainly true for infants who have received a valid sacramental Baptism), then we cannot see them (except for the baptized infants.)

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Re: Bro.Thomas Augustine will still not answer if the baptism of desire cases are physically visible to us

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