The Fifth Lateran Council

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:53 pm

Lionel,

"Baptism of Desire" exists in that there are folks who desire to be Baptized! You can go up to these individuals and they will tell you, "Yes, I desire, want, hope, etc., to be sacramentally baptized!" That has never been the issue. What has been the issue is the following:

1) Individuals who desire, explicitly, to be sacramentally baptized, and yet, through no fault of their own, supposedly die without being baptized.

2) Individuals who have no desire whatsoever to be baptized and/or even hold sacramental baptism in contempt; can these individuals experience some sort of "implicit baptism of desire" if they had "only known such and such..."

Stating that everyone who is in Paradise or that everyone who will be in Paradise has the character of sacramental Baptism solves any paradoxes presented by both #1 and #2.

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If they arrive in heaven without the baptism of water it would not contradict the dogmatic teaching

Post by Lionel A on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:22 am

"Baptism of Desire" exists in that there are folks who desire to be Baptized! You can go up to these individuals and they will tell you, "Yes, I desire, want, hope, etc., to be sacramentally baptized!" That has never been the issue.

Such a person would be able to receive the baptism of water.

When I refer to the baptism of desire I mean those catechumens who die before receiving the baptism of water. They can be saved. They can go to Heaven.

If they arrive in heaven without the baptism of water: it would not contradict the dogmatic teaching that all need the baptism of water, all need to convert into the Church for salvation in the sense that

a) we cannot give any one the baptism of desire on earth and
by) every one still needs the baptism of water given to adults with Catholic Faith.

Every one on earth needs Sacramemtal baptism for salvation and if ( a big if, which is a possibility and not a known actuality) there is someone saved in Heave, as they say, with the baptism of desire minus the baptism of water, it is not an exception to the dogmatic teaching, it does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Would you agree ?

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:55 am

Lionel A wrote:When I refer to the baptism of desire I mean those catechumens who die before receiving the baptism of water. They can be saved. They can go to Heaven.

I assert, if only as a theological opinion, that there are no such individuals. Father Feeney, of course, asserted this opinion in his The Bread of Life, which has never been condemned by the Magisterium. It was, from the time of Saint Augustine, until now, a completely valid theological opinion.

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In general it is true that the baptism of water is needed for salvation.

Post by Lionel A on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:23 pm

that there are no such individuals. Father Feeney, of course, asserted this opinion in his The Bread of Life,

The Catechism (magisterium) says God is not limited to the Sacraments.(CCC 1257).

So is the Catechism saying that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water can also lead to salvation ?

Fr.Leonard Feeney in The Bread of LIfe said that the baptism of desire will result in justification and not salvation.
In general it is true that the baptism of water is needed for salvation.

However in certain circumstances and known only to God could there be a case of a non Catholic in Heaven with the baptism of desire and now God is providing whatever else is necessary for his salvation.

He has died on earth but has not gone to Hell.Could his justification have drawn upon him the graces needed to move towards salvation.

So in general CCC 1257 says all need the baptism of water for salvation and the Church knows of no other means to eternal beatitude and in some cases known only to God, 'certain circumstances'(Letter of the Holy Office 1949) a person could be saved with the baptism of desire etc.


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Even if they are it does not contradict the dogma since these are just hypothetical cases.

Post by Lionel A on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:25 pm

that there are no such individuals.

Even if they are it does not contradict the dogma since these are just hypothetical cases.

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:57 pm

Lionel A wrote:
that there are no such individuals. Father Feeney, of course, asserted this opinion in his The Bread of Life,

The Catechism (magisterium) says God is not limited to the Sacraments.(CCC 1257).

So is the Catechism saying that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water can also lead to salvation ?

Fr.Leonard Feeney in The Bread of LIfe said that the baptism of desire will result in justification and not salvation.
In general it is true that the baptism of water is needed for salvation.

However in certain circumstances and known only to God could there be a case of a non Catholic in Heaven with the baptism of desire and now God is providing whatever else is necessary for his salvation.

He has died on earth but has not gone to Hell.Could his justification have drawn upon him the graces needed to move towards salvation.

So in general CCC 1257 says all need the baptism of water for salvation and the Church knows of no other means to eternal beatitude and in some cases known only to God, 'certain circumstances'(Letter of the Holy Office 1949) a person could be saved with the baptism of desire etc.


Of course, the Triune God is not limited to His Sacraments; you're "pounding on open doors" with that one. However, the Catholic Church has never defined that there are individuals in Paradise who are there who lack the character of sacramental Baptism. Just as God is "not bound by His Sacraments," so, too, He is not bound by the physical laws of the Cosmos which He, after all, created. He can bring sacramental Baptism (and with that, the sacramental character) to whomever He wills.

As for the 1949 Holy Office letter, it nowhere mentions the sacrament of Baptism.

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So you accept the possibility (possibility only not a known actuality) of a person being in Heaven with the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water ?

Post by Lionel A on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:38 am

Of course, the Triune God is not limited to His Sacraments; you're "pounding on open doors" with that one.

So you accept the possibility (possibility only not a known actuality) of a person being in Heavn with the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water ?

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:49 am

Lionel A wrote:So you accept the possibility (possibility only not a known actuality) of a person being in Heavn with the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water ?[/b]

No, but I admit that I could be wrong. As the character of sacramental Baptism confers grace, the omnipotent One and Triune God can (and, I believe, will) bring it to whomever He wishes. While God is "not bound His Sacraments," He is bound by His Perfection, which means that He is bound by His Word, and since He has commanded every human being to be "baptized in water" and since His commandments are not "impossible for us to fulfill," it stands to reason that everyone in Paradise will have received sacramental Baptism in Water without any exceptions whatsoever.

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If there was some in Heaven without the baptism of water it would not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney.

Post by Lionel A on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:47 am

As the character of sacramental Baptism confers grace, the omnipotent One and Triune God can (and, I believe, will) bring it to whomever He wishes. While God is "not bound His Sacraments," He is bound by His Perfection, which means that He is bound by His Word, and since He has commanded every human being to be "baptized in water" and since His commandments are not "impossible for us to fulfill," it stands to reason that everyone in Paradise will have received sacramental Baptism in Water without any exceptions whatsoever..

True and if there was some in Heaven without the baptism of water it would not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney.

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:24 am

Just so we're clear, Father Feeney asserted, as a theological opinion, that everyone who ultimately makes it to Paradise will have the character of sacramental Baptism imprinted upon their souls; no exceptions.

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Even if there was an exception it would not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney ?

Post by Lionel A on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:37 am

Just so we're clear, Father Feeney asserted, as a theological opinion, that everyone who ultimately makes it to Paradise will have the character of sacramental Baptism imprinted upon their souls; no exceptions..

Yes, however even if there was an exception it would not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney ?

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:52 am

Maybe not, but it would contradict what Father wrote in his The Bread of Life.

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Which passage are you refering to ?

Post by Lionel A on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:57 am

it would contradict what Father wrote in his The Bread of Life..
In what way ?. Which passage are you refering to ?

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:19 am

"There is NO ONE about to die in the state of justification WHOM GOD CANNOT SECURE BAPTISM FOR, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am preaching to you." (Father Feeney, Bread of Life, pg. 56)

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Lionel A on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:58 am

The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics.

In the schemes concerning salvation it is a possibility ( and only a possibilty) that a person could die with justification ( not salvation) and go to Heaven. Then God could send that person back to earth to receive the baptism of water.

The person was in Heaven and is finally saved.

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If you say that I should not judge... it would also be a judgement on your part of me.

Post by Lionel A on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:27 pm

I am not judging his personality or charachter or morals.
I am pointing out to the teaching of the Catholic Church which his bishop too is not following.

I am focusing on Church doctrine.
I am saying that a person who does not affirm a defined dogma, Vatican Council II and the Catechism is in mortal sin.

If you say that I should not judge... it would also be a judgement on your part of me.

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:35 pm

Lionel,

Jesus Christ, the King of Heaven, appointed the Apostles and their successors to "govern, rule and extend" the Church, not you. Write a final letter to Rome and then forget about it. Your actions amount to at least material schism; if you don't believe me, then ask your confessor.

If and when the good priest and his bishop get to Heaven, their errors will be made know to them. Ditto if they should end-up in eternal Hell. Don't join them in the latter, okay?

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The First Three Spiritual Acts of Mercy

Post by Lionel A on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:05 am

The Spiritual Works of Mercy
•Admonish the sinner
•Instruct the ignorant (This and the next work are extremely pertinent categories today, when so many people are confused by what the Church teaches on contraception, abortion, homosexuality, etc.)
•Counsel the doubtful


They all involve talking or writing to someone.

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:19 pm

Linoel,

Yes, all in the context of submission to the Roman Pontiff, which means submission to one's Bishop. Have you brought "your activities" to the attention of your Bishop? If so, what did he say to you?!

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Lionel A on Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:52 am

•Admonish the sinner
•Instruct the ignorant (This and the next work are extremely pertinent categories today, when so many people are confused by what the Church teaches on contraception, abortion, homosexuality, etc.)
•Counsel the doubtful

The Spiritual Works of Mercy don't say first consult your bishop, priest or pope.
You just go an instruct the ignoranct. You don't coordinate with the bishop.

When you meet someone...you don't think first I have to consult the priest.

The things you are saying or in your judgments here, have you talked to your bishop ?





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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:00 am

Lionel,

What do you think that "submission to the Roman Pontiff" means? Do you agree with the following:

I. We promise to be always faithful to the Catholic Church and to the Roman Pontiff, the Supreme Pastor, Vicar of Christ, Successor of Peter, and head of the body of bishops.

II. We declare that we accept the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church in the substance of Faith and Morals, adhering to each doctrinal affirmation in the required degree, according to the doctrine contained in No. 25 of the dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium of the Second Vatican Council.

III. 1. We declare that we accept the doctrine regarding the Roman Pontiff and regarding the college of bishops, with the pope as its head, which is taught by the dogmatic constitution Pastor Aeternus of Vatican I and by the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium of Vatican II, the chapter De constitutione hierarchica Ecclesiae et in specie de episcopatu, explained and interpreted by the nota explicativa praevia in this same chapter.

2. We recognize the authority of the Magisterium to which alone is given the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, in written form or handed down in fidelity to Tradition, recalling that "the Holy Ghost was not promised to the successors of Peter in order for them to make known, through revelation, a new doctrine, but so that with His assistance they may keep in a holy and expressly faithful manner the revelation transmitted by the Apostles, that is to say, the Faith."

3. Tradition is the living transmission of revelation "usque ad nos" and the Church in its doctrine, in its life and in its liturgy perpetuates and transmits to all generations what this is and what she believes. Tradition progresses in the Church with the assistance of the Holy Ghost, not as a contrary novelty, but through a better understanding of the Deposit of the Faith.

4. The entire tradition of Catholic Faith must be the criterion and guide in understanding the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, which, in turn, enlightens -- in other words deepens and subsequently makes explicit -- certain aspects of the life and doctrine of the Church implicitly present within itself or not yet conceptually formulated.

5. The affirmations of the Second Vatican Council and of the later Pontifical Magisterium relating to the relationship between the Church and the non-Catholic Christian confessions, as well as the social duty of religion and the right to religious liberty, whose formulation is with difficulty reconcilable with prior doctrinal affirmations from the Magisterium, must be understood in the light of the whole, uninterrupted Tradition, in a manner coherent with the truths previously taught by the Magisterium of the Church, without accepting any interpretation of these affirmations whatsoever that would expose Catholic doctrine to opposition or rupture with Tradition and with this Magisterium.

6. That is why it is legitimate to promote through legitimate discussion the study and theological explanations of the expressions and formulations of Vatican II and of the Magisterium which followed it, in the case where they don't appear reconcilable with the previous Magisterium of the Church.

7. We declare that we recognize the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention to do what the Church does according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Sacramentary Rituals legitimately promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John-Paul II.

8. In following the guidelines laid out above (III.5), as well as Canon 21 of the Code of Canon Law, we promise to respect the common discipline of the Church and the ecclesiastical laws, especially those which are contained in the Code of Canon Law promulgated by John-Paul II (1983) and in the Code of Canon Law of the Oriental Churches promulgated by the same pontiff (1990), without prejudice to the discipline of the Society of Saint Pius X, by a special law.

Are you prepared to obey the Roman Pontiff, Vicar of God? Or, are you going to be a "Magisterium of One" and simply "sit in judgment" of anyone who does not agree with you???

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Lionel A on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:56 am

Are you prepared to obey the Roman Pontiff, Vicar of God? Or, are you going to be a "Magisterium of One" and simply "sit in judgment" of anyone who does not agree with you???.

So I agree with the above.
Now you point out to me where I have erred.


I have been quoting the texts of the Magisterium. None of them claim that the baptism of desire etc is visible to us and so is an exception to the dogma

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:22 am

You've erred in that a priest is above you, and above him is his bishop, and above him is the Roman Pontiff, Vicar of God. You need to stop "sitting in judgment" of those whom you have no authority to judge, not even in the capacity of a "corporeal work of mercy." Neither divine nor canon law gives you either this right or even obligation, and even assuming the latter, you have clearly discharged that. You need to "cease and desist" your public calumny and charges of heresy against priests or any other individuals and stop judging those whom the Church herself has not judged.

Okay?

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I have the authority to judge I do not have the authority to condemn.

Post by Lionel A on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:57 am

You've erred in that a priest is above you, and above him is his bishop, and above him is the Roman Pontiff, Vicar of God. You need to stop "sitting in judgment" of those whom you have no authority to judge, not even in the capacity of a "corporeal work of mercy."

I have the authority to judge I do not have the authority to condemn.
Your mixing up judging and condemning.
And any way as I said it before you are doing it here.
St.Maximillian Kolbe said that if a superior teaches heresy you are under no obligation to obey him.
Judge ye not and you will not be judged(Matthew) refers to judging and condemning.
If you do not judge you will not be able to cross the street normally and not do many other good things.

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

Post by Admin on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:19 am

The "superior" in question is not your priest; he's not even in your diocese! Has Rome given you some "mandate" to be some sort of worldwide "heresy hunter"? Are you saying that if Pope Francis told you to stop doing what you are doing you would disobey him??? How about your bishop? Your confessor? Are you saying that you have no authority here on Earth? Are you saying that the entire hierarchy of the Catholic Church are heretics? If so, are you a sede? If every priest and bishop in the World are all heretics, to whom can you seek the Sacraments from? Are you saying that the Church of Christ has disappeared? If so, how can it still be visible and indefectible?

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Re: The Fifth Lateran Council

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