Even the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers, are saying that the Magisterium has made a mistake ?

Go down

Even the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers, are saying that the Magisterium has made a mistake ?

Post by Lionel A on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:01 am

Tuesday, February 19, 2013
Even the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers, are saying that the Magisterium has made a mistake ?
When it is said that the Letter of the Holy Office 1947 corrected Fr.Leonard Feeney for not accepting the baptism of desire as an exception, it means the Letter made a mistake.It was implying that the baptism of desire was a known exception , these cases were physically visible to us to be an exception to the dogma .The dogma tells us that every one needs to be a visible member of the Church for salvation.

The Letter would be saying according to the St.Benedict Centers that some people do not have to convert in the present times.

So for the St.Benedict Centers is the baptism of desire physically visible to us or not? I have asked at the St.Benedict Centers,USA and I get no reply.
If it is not physically visible to us then there is no problem.The Letter refers to a person being saved with implicit desire or invincible ignorance.We accept this as a possibility.It is not mistaken to be an exception.

If for the SBC the baptism of desire is physically visible to us then it means the baptism of desire contradicts the dogma.Then the Letter has made a mistake.For many it would mean the magisterium has made a mistake.The magisterium is contradicting an infallible teaching with known cases of salvation.The magisterium is also saying that the dead are visible to us on earth.
-Lionel Andrades

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Even the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers, are saying that the Magisterium has made a mistake ?

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:20 am

Lionel,

If you are trying to contact the SBC in Massachusetts, you're not going to get a reply, unless you physically go there. As for the one in New Hampshire, no, they do not view "Baptism of Desire" as being a "visible exception" to EENS. In fact, Father Feeney wrote his Bread of Life well after the 1949 (note the year) Holy Office Letter where he more or less embraced the opinion of Saint Augustine that the One and Triune God, through his omnipotence, would not allow one of His Elect to end his/her life without sacramental Baptism in Water. The Holy Office Letter, by the way, never addressed the issue of sacramental Baptism, but only canonical membership within the Catholic Church. Read the late Brother Thomas Mary Sennott's essays on this subject:

http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/

If you want to be closer to one of the SBCs, join one of them as a Third Order member!

Admin
Admin

Posts : 220
Join date : 2013-02-12

View user profile http://eens.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Even the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers, are saying that the Magisterium has made a mistake ?

Post by Lionel A on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:57 am

I would like to be closer to them but this issue of the explicit, visible to us baptism of desire needs to be settled.
There could be some of the religious in the SBC who recognize that the baptism of desire can only be accepted in theory, hypothetically.
Are you in contact with them via the telephone?
__________________________________________________________


But Father Laisney, despite his posturing, does not really believe there is "no salvation outside the Church." Here is his final summary of his position: "The doctrine of baptism of blood and baptism of desire is inseparably linked by the Church to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. It belongs to the very proper understanding of that dogma, so that if one denies it, he no longer holds the dogma in the same sense and the same words as the Church holds it." (11) This is just a tricky was of saying there is salvation outside the Church. He himself makes this abundantly clear on the last page of his book:-Is Laisneyism Catholic ?

For Fr.Laisney the baptism of desire was visible to us physically and so an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

The SBC accepts implicit desire with charity and followed by the baptism of water.

Do they believe that this baptism of desire(always followed by water) is visible to us ?
Or is it hypotehtical, accepted in faith and so not relevant to Fr.Leonard Feeney and the dogma?

Would you know anyone at the SBC who can respond here and then I could quote him?

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Even the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers, are saying that the Magisterium has made a mistake ?

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:46 am

Lionel,

Well, again, if anyone thinks that "baptism of desire" is visible to us, then they should be able to name some names. Right? Now, if they cannot provide any concrete examples, then the argument is moot. And, if there are Catholics in Paradise who have died outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church and/or in submission to the Roman Pontiff, why has the Catholic Church not canonized any of these folks?

Admin
Admin

Posts : 220
Join date : 2013-02-12

View user profile http://eens.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Would the St.Benedict Centers also say ...

Post by Lionel A on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:28 am

The following is from True Catholic.

Lionel:
He refers to a development of doctrine. This is usually an indication that he considers the baptism of desire etc as visible to us and so an exception to the traditional teaching on the dogma.

Those who have not heard the Gospel, who are in invincible ignorance, are known only to God. So they are not relevant or an exception to the dogma.


There exist among the documents of the Magisterium a handful of rather restrictive texts concerning church membership, similar in tone to some of the statements of the Early Fathers already mentioned. One example is a declaration by the Fourth Lateran Council, held in 1215, which taught "there is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved." Furthermore, Pope Boniface VIII, in his bull of 1302 entitled , asserted in the strongest possible terms that "it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

By far the most favorite conciliar quote of the Feeneyites, however, comes from the Council of Florence. Pope Eugene IV issued the Bull in 1441, which states the following:….
Lionel:
The report on EWTN also assumes that those saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma. So it implies that these cases are visible to us.

These cases are irrelevant to the dogma. So the Letter has not made a mistake.It has not stated that these cases are known to us or that they are exceptions to the dogma. This is assumed by Fr.John George and others.


GO FURTHER DOWN THIS LINK FOR ANDRADES TRACK RECORD"
Lionel:
Another priest like Fr.John saying there is physically visible salvation in Heaven

_______________________________________________________________________

So would the St.Benedict Centers also say that (1) the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are not exceptions to the dogma and that (2) we cannot physically see any of these cases.Also (3)if the Letter of the Holy Office indicated that we could physically see any of these cases of the dead-saved then it made a mistake?

The following are two questions which I asked the SBC but received no reply.Their response would be welcome here.

1. Do we know in the year 2013 any one saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience (Lumen Gentium), seeds of the word (Ad Gentes), imperfect communion with the Church (Unitatis Redintigratio)?

2. If we do not know any of these cases in 2013 can they be considered exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors?
Lionel Andrades

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Even the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers, are saying that the Magisterium has made a mistake ?

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:47 am

Lionel,

What was defined in Cantate Domino at the Council of Florence is that everyone must end his/her life "in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." Period. End of story.

Now, is being in "the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church" always entail being a visible member of the Catholic Church? Obviously not, for per Florence,:

But in case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but even a lay man or a woman, even a pagan and a heretic, can baptize provided he or she uses the form of the church and intends to do what the church does. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God.

So, is it possible that some Amazon Indian, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, poured water on some child's head while saying, "I baptize you." Would such a child be an visible member of the Catholic Church? No. Would he/she be "in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church?" Most certainly!

Admin
Admin

Posts : 220
Join date : 2013-02-12

View user profile http://eens.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Why does the SBC not respond?

Post by Lionel A on Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:47 am

Are you a Third Order member of the SBC community ?

How would you respond to these two questions ?
1. Do we know in the year 2013 any one saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience (Lumen Gentium), seeds of the word (Ad Gentes), imperfect communion with the Church (Unitatis Redintigratio)?

2. If we do not know any of these cases in 2013 can they be considered exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors?


Why does the SBC not respond?

Lionel A

Posts : 253
Join date : 2013-02-14

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Even the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, the St.Benedict Centers, are saying that the Magisterium has made a mistake ?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum